Debatemne: Thai-Dk Din debat side :: yderst interessant læsning for nogle

Oprettet af manse d. 28-05-2009 09:53
#1

Meget interessant læsning i dag om følgende emne, som jeg løst har oversat til dansk. Jeg var selv ikke klar over, at dette at købe hus gennem kone var ulovligt, hvis ikke det kan bevises, at hun ikke selv har eller har haft penge nok.

Det kunne da være enormt interessant at se, hvordan myndighederne
ville kontrollerede dette, for det kræver trods alt, at alle de offentlige computere kan tale sammen, og ikke som nu, hvor et kontor ikke kan svare på, hvad et andet kontor har lavet, uden at ringe til rette vedkommende for verificering af påstande.



Køb af jord og ejendom gennem thailandske ægtefæller er forbudt: Jord Dept

Phuket CITY: generaldirektøren for delstaten Department har gentaget, at udlændinge der får hjælp fra thailandske ægtefæller til at købe jord overalt i landet, vil få deres jord skøder tilbagekaldte, hvis de bliver fanget – også selv om der er tale om lovligt viede ægtefæller.

Land Department direktør Anuwat Meteewiboonwut fremsatte bemærkninger under et nyligt stop i Phuket som led i en landsdækkende undersøgelse.

Som for udlændinge, der ønsker at købe hjem i Phuket eller andre steder, så kan de gøre det gennem ejerlejlighedskompleks loven, som tillader udenlandsk ejerskab på op til 49% af ethvert projekt, sagde han.

Udlændinge kan ikke bruge en thailandsk ægtefælle som en kandidat til at købe ejendom i Thailand, dog.

"Hvis den thailandske ægtefælle har penge nok til at købe det hus, er det fint nok, men hvis den thailandske ægtefælle ingen penge har, og bruger penge givet til ham/hende af en udlænding til at erhverve ejendom, så er det imod loven. Hvis vi kontrollere og finder ud af dette senere, at en thailandsk person har brugt penge fra en udlænding til at købe jord eller ejendom for, overalt i Thailand, vil vi ophæve skødet omgående, "sagde han.

Redigeret af manse d. 28-05-2009 09:57

Oprettet af manse d. 28-05-2009 14:47
#2

Hej det glæder mig at min hjemby smilets by nu har sol men trods alt kun 14 grader:P

Der er vel kun en ting at gøre, og det er vel at bruge samme model, som jeg har brugt. Jeg fik konen godkendt til et lån på 2. mill. Bath i banken, og det var den skrabede pris på huset.

Ud over dette har jeg så betalt resten, og det er nu ikke så lidt, men dette kan jo ikke henføres til huset. Dette være sig pølen, ekstra badeværelser, udendørs køkken, alt tilmuret bagtil, møbler, godt køkken, enorm balkon, ekstra grund o.s.v., ja så er der juridisk backup for det skrevne, for hun har bevist, at hun er godkendt af banken til at låne. At de så ikke ved, at jeg har sat garantien ind for dette lån, ja det vedkommer jo ingen. Jeg behøvede det egentligt ikke, for hun var blevet vejet og fundet okay til et sådant lån, men jeg tænkte på min høje alder, og ville gerne sikre hende i sidste ende.

Ja så enkelt kan det egentlig lade sig gøre…….

Jeg tror undersøgelsen er startet fordi man har fundet ud af, at for mange faranger laver kontrakter på årmålsleje af konernes hus, og derfor er den naturlige udvikling jo denne.

Selvom jeg læser på andre sider, hvor dumme thaierne er, ja så er der altså nogle der kan regne og skrive.:VI

Redigeret af manse d. 28-05-2009 14:49

Oprettet af yindee d. 28-05-2009 19:38
#3

hej Manse

nu er det ikke så meget huse man er ude efter
loven er mere baseret på jord op køb i konens navn hvor hun køber for det man kalder farang penge og dette er nu forbudt

hvad jeg syntes er godt for de faranger presser priserne op hvor de ikke høre hjemme



....


Oprettet af rinpoche d. 28-05-2009 21:57
#4

elvom jeg læser på andre sider, hvor dumme thaierne er, ja så er der altså nogle der kan regne og skrive


Absolut Manse.

Og i den forbindelse kan man spørge sig selv om din model er helt vandtæt. Her tænker jeg på konens lån.
Kan hun godtgøre at hun har en officiel indtægt, der sætter hende i stand til at afdrage lån og renter af 2 mill. baht uden din mellemkomst?
Ellers så kunne den løsning også være problematisk, hvis de som du siger kan regne og skrive.
Jeg spiller blot djævlens advokat her, ikke forsøg på at være personlig.

Og til Yindee, det har da været forbudt at købe land for farang penge i en lang årrække, ikke noget nyt i det.

mvh
rinpoche

Redigeret af rinpoche d. 28-05-2009 21:59

Oprettet af manse d. 29-05-2009 02:39
#5

rin du skriver, at du ikke forsøger at være personlig. Man må vel kunne forlange, at en mand med dit format, læser hvad der bliver skrevet inden du fare i blækhuset med det personlige.

Ikke for at gentage mig selv, men bare for at opfriske hvad der egentligt er skrevet.

Jeg behøvede det egentligt ikke, for hun var blevet vejet og fundet okay til et sådant lån, men jeg tænkte på min høje alder, og ville gerne sikre hende i sidste ende.:o:(

Oprettet af Abekatten d. 29-05-2009 13:16
#6

Der har de sidste 4 søndage i SPECTRUM i Bangkok Post været artikler om de forskellige købsmuligheder på lovlig vis af hus/grund, I kan hente alle 4 artikler ned stadig på bangkokpost.com. Sandheden er absolut mere nuanceret end Land Department direktøren giver indtryk af.

Oprettet af Abekatten d. 30-05-2009 07:27
#7

manse, har idag talt med en thailandsk jurist, der er noget rystet over hvad du havde skrevet, han var diplomatisk og sagde at det måtte være taget ud af en større sammenhæng, i realiteten mente han det var direkte forkert, det din ven havde sagt. Kan du ikke fremskaffe den originale tekst, så vi kan få tingene ind i rette sammenhæng.

Oprettet af yindee d. 30-05-2009 15:44
#8

hej her er lidt på eng om sagen

hentet fra http://www.bkkok....e&sid=4217


PHUKET CITY: The director general of the Land Department has reiterated that foreigners using Thai nominees to buy land anywhere in the country will have their land title deeds revoked if caught – even if the nominee in question is a lawfully wedded spouse.

Land Department Director Anuwat Meteewiboonwut made the comments during a recent stop in Phuket as part of a nationwide inspection tour of 30 provinces.

The tour is aimed at improving public services by land officials in three areas: dress, conduct when dealing with the public and working harder to eliminate a backlog of work.

Many members of the public have complained that it takes up to a year to complete a transaction that should only take one day, he said.

Mr Anuwat, a former governor of both Phang Nga and Samut Prakan provinces, said he was satisfied on the first two points, but rated the general level of success among land officials nationwide at speeding up their work rate at “only 30%”.

The next round of inspection tours will come in July, after which time personnel changes will be considered if service does not improve, he said.

“We have to keep pressure on them, otherwise the work will not get done,” he said.

As for foreigners seeking to buy homes in Phuket, they can do so through the Condominium Act, which allows foreign ownership of up to 49% of any project, he said.

Foreigners cannot use a Thai spouse as a nominee to buy property in Thailand, however.

“If the Thai spouse has enough money to buy the house that is fine, but if the Thai has no money and uses money given to him or her by a foreigner to acquire property, that is against the law. If we check and find out later that a Thai person has been using money from a foreigner to buy land anywhere in Thailand, we will revoke title deeds,” he said.

Mr Anuwat said the provisions of [Ministry of Interior] ministerial order 43 makes it difficult to issue land documents quickly, as it requires action from a number of different agencies. Desire for land on the island has also led to encroachment problems here, he said.

As a key market for property companies, Phuket is a constant source of problems and complaints to the director general’s office, he admitted.

“We will try to resolve these problems and develop our personnel continuously in order to provide high quality services. Fortunately the governor of Phuket used to work in the Land Department, so he understands the procedures and can help co-ordinate all the agencies involved,” he said.

Mr Anuwat was speaking of Phuket Governor Wichai Phraisa-ngop, who served as Land Office director in Nakhon Pathom in 1997 and as deputy director of the Land Department nationwide in 2003.

Oprettet af yindee d. 30-05-2009 15:47
#9

bangkokpost.com har også omtalt sagen

http://www.bangko...=39790:LOL


så manse har nok lidt ret i det han skriver:MU




...

Oprettet af Abekatten d. 30-05-2009 19:51
#10

Jeg har downloaded de 4 søndagsartikler fra Bangkokpost.com, spectrum, foreigners I - IV, hvor der intet står om dette, og det kan da også komme til at berøre mere end 100.000 skøder. Jeg tror stadig ikke det er forbudt at give sin kone/kæreste en gave så hun kan købe grund og hus, men jeg vil da kontakte den advokat det har skrevet i SPECTRUM de sidste 4 søndage om emnet, hvor han ikke med eet ord nævnt ovennævnte.

Oprettet af yindee d. 31-05-2009 01:42
#11

hej abekatten
kunne du ike lige smide et poar link op til de artikler kan ikke finde dem

..

Oprettet af Abekatten d. 31-05-2009 05:49
#12

Hej Yindee. Jeg har idag søndag, forsøgt at sende dig artikel nummer 5 fra Bangkok Post, direkte til din email.
Jeg er ingen ørn til computer, så her er opskriften på simpel dansk.
Gå in på bangkokpost.com under NEWS står SPECTRUM, og her kan du finde alle 5 artikler, starter med ordet "FOREIGNERS".
Jeg kan iøvrigt anbefale dig/jer at læse DATABASE hver onsdag.

Oprettet af claus31130 d. 31-05-2009 07:20
#13

Fandt lige artiklerne inde på Bangkok Post

Artikel 1
Artikel 2
Artikel 3
Artikel 4
Artikel 5

Eller læs dem herunder.....


Artikel 1

FOREIGNERS: LEGAL PROBLEMS OF HOME OWNERSHIP IN THAILAND


Part I: Is the home in your name?
By: James Finch and Nilobon Tangprasit
Published: 3/05/2009 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: Spectrum

This is the first in a series about the legal problems of foreigners who now own homes in Thailand. If you have one or more of these problems, you can and should correct them - before they reach some final stage of the legal system.
Vast numbers of foreigners who have bought homes in Thailand have done so with serious defects in title or ownership. One factor contributing to these numbers is the fact that many first-time home buyers in Thailand let the developer or seller do all the documentation and filing of the ownership documents without consulting with somebody who understands what must be done to protect the buyer's interests. And they sign documents in Thai, even though they don't understand them.

One important issue is whether the home is in your name or not. If you are living in a condo, you should find out whether it is in your name and if you own it on a freehold basis. If you have a house, you should first find out if the house is in your name, even if somebody else owns the land or the land is leased to you.

Foreigners can own houses, even if the houses are on land they don't own.

This is important because most of the value of your home purchase is in the house, not the land, and you should control the house.

How can you find out whether you own the house? Any lawyer can do a search and tell you. If it's not registered in your name, and you bought it from someone, you should take steps now to have it registered in your name. The registration is done by giving an official 30-day notice along with filing copies of the building permit, the certificate of completion, the blue or yellow book and other documentation.

Who owns the land on which your house sits? This may surprise you. The answer lies at the land office, not necessarily in documents you may have signed.

In Thailand, all ownership of land must be registered at the government land office with jurisdiction over the area where the house is. Likewise, all leases longer than three years are not enforceable beyond three years unless they are registered at the land office.

Many foreigners we meet produce elaborate leases, corporate documents and deeds that they think protect their home ownership. Often when we check, nothing has been filed at the land office and they have no ownership or lease at all. What this means is that the real owner of record at the land office can sell the home to someone else. If this real owner dies, his or her heirs will take the home, not the foreigner. If your land ownership or long lease has not been filed at the land office, it should be, right away.

Numerous foreigners, for convenience, put land in the names of Thai spouses or friends. If the relationships don't work out the foreigner may lose everything. This can be protected against by having the Thai party long lease the property back to the foreigner. Alternatively, in the case the Thai party is your spouse, you can use a vehicle of Thai law called a right of usufruct, which gives something like a life estate to the you. There are other ways, as well.

If your land is owned by someone else, even though that someone has held it for some time, you should protect your interests in it now, by asking that person to give you a lease or usufruct or other form of protection.

James Finch of Chavalit Finch and

Partners () and Nilobon Tangprasit of Siam City Law Offices Ltd ().

For more information visit

http://www.chaval...chlaw.com.


Artikel 2

FOREIGNERS: LEGAL PROBLEMS OF HOME OWNERSHIP IN THAILAND PART II: Is your long lease registered?


By: James Finch and Nilobon Tangprasit
Published: 10/05/2009 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: Spectrum

This is a continuation in our series about legal problems you may have if you already own a home in Thailand. Many of these may exist even if you're living in the home and everything appears to be fine.

Here's the issue of the week. Is your long lease really registered at the land office? Many foreign residents of Thailand are confused about this, and long after they have signed the lease and forgotten about the whole thing find they have only a fraction of the protection they thought they negotiated with the person who sold the home to them.

Here's how it happens. Often the seller and the foreign buyer sign an elaborate long lease in English that contains protection for the buyer. It may be that the foreigner has requested numerous provisions in the lease that give him or her a real sense of confidence in the transaction. The lease is signed and money changes hands.

Here are examples of the kinds of clauses in a long lease that might protect a foreign tenant: "If the laws of Thailand change and allow foreigners to own land freehold [forever] the landlord agrees to convey it to the tenant in freehold."

"If the landlord is in default, for example by not providing certain services, the landlord must pay damages."

"If the tenant wants to sublet or assign the lease, the landlord has to allow this."

But what happens then? Quite often, the lease the parties have negotiated doesn't get filed at the land office at all. Instead, all that is filed is a short notation of the lease and the names of the landlord and tenant in the file relating to the land. Such a notation will have none of the protection for the tenant contained in what was signed between the parties. In fact, it may contain limitations on the tenant's enjoyment of the property that contradict what is in the lease the parties signed.

What happens to the long lease that the parties negotiated and signed? Under Thai law, unless a lease has been filed at the proper land office, after three years it is not valid. This means that if the lease is for 30 years, the protection in the signed agreement will not last beyond three years.

One tip-off that your lease may not have been filed is that if it is in English or another foreign language only, it cannot have been filed at a Thai land office. A translation of it can be filed, and a lease in both English and Thai in alternating translated paragraphs can be filed at a Thai land office, too. But if it was never translated into Thai, you can be sure it was never filed.

How do you find out if your lease was properly filed? Practically any lawyer can check this with the land office that has jurisdiction over the area in which you live. If the lease you signed was never filed at the land office, you should ask the landlord to cooperate in having it filed immediately. This can be done by having it translated into Thai, if this hasn't been done already. You and the landlord can then file it at the land office. Neither of you has to go in person. You can give powers of attorney to someone else to do this.

Now that you understand what can happen, you also know why we recommend that the "someone else" mentioned above be a person who can explain to you what's being done and who fully understands how to protect your interests.As with issues discussed earlier, the solution to the problem of the unfiled lease is quite simple and cheap. But the best thing to do is make sure the problem is solved at the time you lease the home - not later.

James Finch of Chavalit Finch and

Partners () and Nilobon Tangprasit of Siam City Law Offices Limited ().

For more information visit

http://www.chaval...nchlaw.com


Artikel 3

FOREIGNERS: LEGAL PROBLEMS OF HOME OWNERSHIP IN THAILAND PART III: A house on a lease


By: James Finch and Nilobon Tangprasit
Published: 17/05/2009 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: Spectrum

Here's yet another problem that foreigners with homes in Thailand run across - the house is on a long lease. We'll explain it fully below, but this one can be fixed.

If you acquired your home in Thailand on a 30-year basis you may find that the lease covers both the land and the house. What's wrong with that?

Well, to begin with, let's look at the reason you have leased. Without a major investment and individual government approval, foreigners aren't allowed to own real estate in Thailand. They are, however, allowed to long-lease it, so many if not all foreigners are now leasing the land.

But what about the house that sits on the land? There's nothing in Thai law that would prevent a foreigner from owning it. In fact, there's a procedure for this. First, the foreigner through a representative posts notice of claim of ownership of the house at the amphur (the district or sheriff's office) and the tessabal (the municipal office) that have jurisdiction over the area where the house is located. Thirty days later the foreigner can register ownership of the house in his or her name at the land office, just like any other real estate is registered. Even if the land on which the house sits is leased.

Why do houses not get registered and why are they put on a lease? Two reasons. First, a lease is always more uncertain than ownership and the landlord may have his or her reasons for giving only a lease on the house. If the lease is prematurely terminated, it will be more convenient for the landlord to get both land and house back. This might happen, for example, if you die and you haven't made proper provision for succession in the lease. Under Thai law, unless provided otherwise, the property will revert to the landlord when the tenant dies. All the rights of the lease, including the house, would, in this event, go back to the landlord.

But you paid a full price for the land and house, right, not some reduced price because you only have a lease? Thus you should insist that the landlord convey the house to you separately.

No use in running the risk that it will go back to the landlord or his or her heirs when the lease ends. By the way, many wooden houses can be disassembled and moved. If you own such a house you can move it away from the landlord's lot whenever you want. If you only lease the house you can't do this.

Next time we'll give you the second reason the landlord may have included your house in the lease, and why it shouldn't be that way.

James Finch of Chavalit Finch & Partners

and Nilobon Tangprasit of Siam City Law Offices Limited nilobon@

siamcitylaw.com

For more information see

http://www.chaval...nchlaw.com


Artikel 4

FOREIGNERS - LEGAL PROBLEMS OF HOME OWNERSHIP IN THAILAND Part IV: House on the lease, continued


By: James Finch and Nilobon Tangprasit
Published: 24/05/2009 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: Spectrum

Last time we told you that if you buy a house and rent the land on which it sits, you should take title to the house separately from the land, and not have it included in the lease of the land.

This time we will discuss another reason that your landlord may have put the house on the lease, and what to do about it.

The second reason the landlord may object to letting you take outright ownership of the house relates to taxes and government fees, since the landlord, as seller, may have agreed to pay all or a part of these. Home purchase deals in Thailand may, for example, often provide that the seller or landlord agrees to pay half the taxes and fees.

Of course, property taxes and fees have to be paid on a house transfer, and the seller may have wanted to avoid these. The taxes and fees may, however, be higher on the lease of a house than those on its purchase, but the landlord may not be aware of this.

Here's how the taxes and fees work. The registration fee on a lease is 1.1% of the value of the rent for the entire period of the lease. One option is to include the value of the house for the entire long lease period in the lease and pay 1.1% of this as the fee.

Alternatively, since you as a foreigner may own the house in your own name, you may pay the taxes and fees on the sale, not the lease, of the house and register it directly in your name.

Your landlord may have registered the house on the lease because he or she thought the taxes and fees were lower this way. Here's what your landlord may not know, however - the taxes and fees on the sale of property, such as the sale of a new house where the land has been separately leased, were drastically reduced for one year, from May 1, 2008, to March 28 this year. During this period they were:

- A registration fee of 0.01 % of the assessed price, plus

- a specific business tax of 0.11% of the sale price and assessed price, whichever is higher.

The above is a total of about 0.12%, including stamp duty.

After March 28, the taxes and fees reverted to the following:

A registration fee of 2 % of the assessed price, plus

a specific business tax of 3.3% of the sale price and assessed price, whichever is higher, or the income tax on the sale in case the seller owned the house over five years.

On March 26, the Ministry of the Interior, however, announced that the break in the above 2% fee would continue for another year. On May 18, the Ministry of Finance announced a royal decree reinstituting the break at 3.3%, effective from May 29. Thus on May 29, and following for about one year, the taxes on the sale of property will go back to the roughly 0.12% mentioned above.

Because of these tax reductions, the property taxes and fees on registering ownership of a house, now about 0.12%, are lower than those of including the value of the house in the lease, which would subject it to the 1.1% fee mentioned above.

What should you do if the house is on the lease? Ask the landlord to amend the lease so that it only includes the land and to convey the house separately to you. You may have to cover the taxes and fees on this, but because they've been reduced this won't be much to put out in exchange for much better rights to what you've bought. If you own the house outright, for example, you may convey it to others without worrying about getting the approval of the landlord. And you can be much more sure that if you die it will go to your heirs.

James Finch of Chavalit Finch and

Partners () and Nilobon Tangprasit of Siam City Law Offices Ltd ().

For more information visit

http://www.chaval...chlaw.com.



Artikel 5

FOREIGNERS: LEGAL PROBLEMS OF HOME OWNERSHIP IN THAILAND Part V: The lease doesn't provide for succession


By: James Finch and Nilobon Tangprasit
Published: 31/05/2009 at 12:00 AM
Newspaper section: Spectrum

In this series we're talking about legal problems that foreign homeowners in Thailand may have. The problem we'll discuss below is a typical one. You may be living happily in a home that is long-leased and not even know the problem exists. It's easy to fix, but if you don't, your loved ones could lose the home if you die.

Thai law provides that if a tenant leasing real property dies, the lease is terminated and the property reverts to the landlord. Thus, if you're the sole tenant on a 30-year lease that doesn't provide otherwise, the home will go back to the landlord if you die, even if, for example, less than a year has gone by since you signed the lease. This means your heirs wouldn't get the remainder of the lease on the place, your landlord would.

How does one deal with this problem? There are two ways. First, the lease itself should be amended to state that the parties agree that if the tenant dies during the term of the lease, the tenant's heirs will succeed as tenants to the lease. There is a small problem with relying only on this amendment. Though there is precedence for it in lower court cases, the Thai Supreme Court has not dealt with the issue directly. Because of the lower court cases, however, we recommend that you take this precaution.

Needless to say, if you say something in a lease to the effect that your heirs should take over the lease when you die, you should have a will that lets the world know who your heirs are. If you don't, in Thailand the lease would pass to what are referred to as your statutory heirs. In the West, we call this intestate succession. It means that without a will the law, not you, decides who inherits your property when you die. Since you may not agree with how the law splits up estates, a will enables you to make these decisions yourself.

A will you've properly executed in your home country or under the laws of a third country is, under Thai law, acceptable. To be safe, however, we recommend you execute a separate will in Thailand applicable to your property in Thailand.

The second solution to the problem of death during the lease is adding a joint tenant. Under Thai law, there may, of course, be more than one tenant on a lease. A lease could have, for example, husband and wife as joint tenants or father and daughter or even several members of a family, such as parents and children. Under Thai law if one of these tenants dies, that person's interest disappears and the other tenants get the whole lease in equal shares.

As with our suggestion about the clause in the lease, the way to add additional tenants is by amendment to the lease. Of course, you'll have to ask your landlord to sign the amendment, but both changes could be done in a single amendment. If you add tenants, by the way, they'll have to sign the amendment, either in person or by power of attorney.

If you do an amendment you will probably have to pay the government registration fee and stamp duty again - 1.1% of the stated value of the lease over its entire period - but peace of mind is worth it.

James Finch of Chavalit Finch & Partners

and Nilobon Tangprasit of Siam City Law Offices Limited



For more information visithttp://www.chavalitfinchlaw.com




Redigeret af claus31130 d. 31-05-2009 07:27

Oprettet af Abekatten d. 31-05-2009 07:30
#14

Tak for hjælpen Claus.
Jeg kender iøvrigt et tilfælde som nævnt ovenfor, hvor konen havde skøde på grunden, og farangen skødet på huset.
Da de blev uvenner, tilbød han konen huset til en rimelig pris (halvdelen af byggesummen). Konen afslog, og farangen fik taget det ud af huset, han kunne genbruge, og bestilte en buldoser til at gøre "arbejdet færdigt".
Problemet er omhandlet i part III, og i avisudgaven er en illustration hvor farangen flytter et træhus på en blokvogn.

Oprettet af bamsen d. 02-06-2009 09:47
#15

Davs
En maade myndighederne vist kan se paa sagerne er,
der hvor konen har mandens farang efternavn.
Der kan og saa se om hun har faaet nyt statsborgerskab.
og om hun nu selv tjener de penge tl at koebe hus for.

bamsen